{"id":36627,"date":"2023-07-15T06:29:00","date_gmt":"2023-07-15T10:29:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/?p=36627"},"modified":"2023-07-13T22:46:51","modified_gmt":"2023-07-14T02:46:51","slug":"jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/","title":{"rendered":"Jim Thorpe Diesels: A Study in GP38-2s"},"content":{"rendered":"\n<p>Two weeks ago, Reading &amp; Northern&#8217;s Class T-1 4-8-4 2102 was the star attraction that captured most of the pixels that day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I think back to the photos my dad made of a Reading Iron Horse Ramble led by  a T-1  back in 1959. This was assisted by a pair of Reading Company Baldwin diesels. The T-1 is still with us. The Baldwins have been gone for a half century.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>So, in another 60 years, I&#8217;ll bet 2102 is still around, but how about the GP38-2s that were also in excursion service that day.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>There was a time when a GP38-2 was just about as common as diesels get. I hardly paid them any notice at all. But these days, some of those GP38-2s are now a half century old. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I made a fair few photos of Reading &amp; Northern&#8217;s GP38-2s in between bursts of pixels of T-1 2102. Here are a few for your consideration.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"315\" data-attachment-id=\"36628\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_2011_pittston_excursion_back_at-nesquehoning_jct_dsc_8437\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?fit=1700%2C1131\" data-orig-size=\"1700,1131\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;BrianSolomon&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?fit=709%2C472\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?fit=474%2C315\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?resize=474%2C315\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-36628\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?w=1700 1700w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?resize=709%2C472 709w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?resize=1022%2C680 1022w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?resize=205%2C136 205w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?resize=1536%2C1022 1536w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?w=948 948w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2011_Pittston_excursion_back_at-Nesquehoning_Jct_DSC_8437.jpg?w=1422 1422w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"316\" data-attachment-id=\"36629\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_gp38-2_2014_wying_iron_horse_ramble_nesquehoning_junction_dsc_3404\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?fit=1700%2C1133\" data-orig-size=\"1700,1133\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?fit=709%2C473\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?fit=474%2C316\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?resize=474%2C316\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-36629\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?w=1700 1700w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?resize=709%2C473 709w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?resize=1022%2C681 1022w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?resize=205%2C137 205w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024 1536w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?w=948 948w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3404.jpg?w=1422 1422w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"316\" data-attachment-id=\"36630\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_gp38-2_2014_wying_iron_horse_ramble_nesquehoning_junction_dsc_3408\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?fit=1700%2C1133\" data-orig-size=\"1700,1133\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?fit=709%2C473\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?fit=474%2C316\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?resize=474%2C316\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-36630\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?w=1700 1700w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?resize=709%2C473 709w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?resize=1022%2C681 1022w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?resize=205%2C137 205w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024 1536w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?w=948 948w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2014_wying_Iron_Horse_Ramble_Nesquehoning_Junction_DSC_3408.jpg?w=1422 1422w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"316\" data-attachment-id=\"36631\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_gp38-2_2013_at_jim_thorpe_dsc_3474\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?fit=1700%2C1133\" data-orig-size=\"1700,1133\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?fit=709%2C473\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?fit=474%2C316\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?resize=474%2C316\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-36631\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?w=1700 1700w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?resize=709%2C473 709w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?resize=1022%2C681 1022w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?resize=205%2C137 205w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?resize=1536%2C1024 1536w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?w=948 948w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3474.jpg?w=1422 1422w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"711\" data-attachment-id=\"36632\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_gp38-2_2013_at_jim_thorpe_dsc_3476\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?fit=1133%2C1700\" data-orig-size=\"1133,1700\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?fit=473%2C709\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?fit=474%2C711\" src=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?resize=474%2C711\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-36632\" srcset=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?w=1133 1133w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?resize=473%2C709 473w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?resize=681%2C1022 681w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?resize=100%2C150 100w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?resize=1024%2C1536 1024w, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_GP38-2_2013_at_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3476.jpg?w=948 948w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 474px) 100vw, 474px\" data-recalc-dims=\"1\" \/><\/figure>\n\n\n\n<figure class=\"wp-block-image size-full\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"474\" height=\"316\" data-attachment-id=\"36633\" data-permalink=\"http:\/\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/jim-thorpe-diesels-a-study-in-gp38-2s\/rn_2013_w_lehigh_gorge_train_departing_jim_thorpe_dsc_3505\/\" data-orig-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2013_w_Lehigh_Gorge_train_departing_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3505.jpg?fit=1700%2C1133\" data-orig-size=\"1700,1133\" data-comments-opened=\"0\" data-image-meta=\"{&quot;aperture&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;credit&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;camera&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;caption&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;created_timestamp&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;copyright&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;focal_length&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;iso&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;shutter_speed&quot;:&quot;0&quot;,&quot;title&quot;:&quot;&quot;,&quot;orientation&quot;:&quot;0&quot;}\" data-image-title=\"RN_2013_w_Lehigh_Gorge_train_departing_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3505\" data-image-description=\"\" data-image-caption=\"\" data-medium-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2013_w_Lehigh_Gorge_train_departing_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3505.jpg?fit=709%2C473\" data-large-file=\"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/briansolomon.com\/trackingthelight\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/07\/RN_2013_w_Lehigh_Gorge_train_departing_Jim_Thorpe_DSC_3505.jpg?fit=474%2C316\" 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I hardly paid them any notice at all. 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